[Greens-Media] Parliament must provide a closer watch over security organisation - Brown

[Bennett, Ebony (Sen B. Brown)]

Friday, 3 October 2008

Parliament must provide a closer watch over security organisation - Brown

Australian Greens Leader Bob Brown said Parliament needs to provide a much closer watch over all security organisations, following revelations that the Australian Crime Commission has kept a secret file on the Minister for Home Affairs, Bob Debus (see page 1 of today's The Age and Sydney Morning Herald).

"The parliament needs to provide a much closer watch over all security organisations. That's how democracy works, not the other way around," Senator Brown said.

Senator Brown said that during Senate estimates last year, the head of the Australian Security and Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) Paul O'Sullivan refused to answer questions about whether any member of parliament or the federal judiciary had been under surveillance. (Hansard attached over page)

"Parliament should provide an overwatch role and careful scrutiny of security agencies. That's how the system works in the United States.

"There isn't anything intelligence agencies know which should not be known to the parliament or subject to parliamentary overview, though many matters will remain in camera." Senator Brown said.

Further information: Ebony Bennett 0409 164 603




STANDING COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
Australian Security Intelligence Organisation
23 May 2007
Senator BOB BROWN-I wonder if you could tell the committee whether in the last several years you have had under surveillance any member of parliament or any member of the federal judiciary in Australia?
Talk
Mr O'Sullivan-It is obvious that I cannot answer that question.
Talk
CHAIR-Senator, I would ask you to rephrase your questions in such a way that Mr O'Sullivan can answer them. He clearly cannot answer that question.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-Let me limit the question to members of parliament and put it this way: under what circumstances would you maintain surveillance on a member of the federal parliament?
Talk
CHAIR-That is a hypothetical question, and it is not appropriate. I rule it out of order. Senator Brown, do you have another question?
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-Yes. Is there any member of the federal parliament who has been or is under surveillance by ASIO?
Talk
Senator Johnston-You are not going to get an answer to that either.
Talk
Mr O'Sullivan-ASIO targets behaviour patterns where we see threats to Australia's security and Australia's interests that are defined in the act we operate under. We adhere very strictly and we have very good internal and external monitoring arrangements to make sure that we do comply completely and legally with the provisions that parliament has passed in respect of this organisation. That is the work we do. So the answer in respect of any particular person in the country is exactly the same. We do not target groups and we do not target particular individuals, except in that respect.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-But I am asking, and it is very easy for you to say no to this, if there is any member of the federal parliament who presents a threat to security such that they are under your surveillance.
Talk
Mr O'Sullivan-Senator, it is not easy for me to answer that question for reasons that I thought were quite straightforward; that is, if you are going to have a security intelligence organisation and you think there are serious threats to this country, its interests and its people, then you set up mechanisms that allow that work to be carried out discreetly and in secret. And that has to be the case. You cannot have one without the other. So if you want such an organisation, then you must want proper mechanisms to allow it to do its work. Part of that mechanism of secrecy or that discretion involves not saying what we do or how we do our work.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-Yes, but when it comes to members of parliament, there is a very particular need for any working member of parliament to know that they are free of surveillance unless there is good reason for it. I do not know of any member of parliament who presents any threat whatever to the security of Australia. In fact, it is my experience that they are all working for the security of this country. But it is important-it is a very direct question I am asking you-that we not have that question mark that ASIO or intelligence agencies are putting members of parliament under surveillance. The reason I ask that is that there would need to be an extremely potent reason for that to happen and I am surprised you are not saying no to the question I asked.
Talk
Mr O'Sullivan-I have no further comment on your observation, Senator.
Talk
Senator NETTLE-What about the minister: are you able to answer that question?
Talk
Senator Johnston-No.
Talk
Senator NETTLE-You are not able to answer whether any member of parliament is a threat to national security?
Talk
Senator Johnston-No, because I am not the minister directly in charge of ASIO. Whilst I represent the minister, I do not have direct oversight of the agency. Secondly, it is a hypothetical question-
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-No, it is a direct question I asked.
Talk
Senator Johnston-No, it is not.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-Yes, it is.
Talk
Senator NETTLE-Is any federal member of parliament a threat to national security? That is the question.
Talk
Senator Johnston-How on earth would I know that?
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-I have another question to ask-
Talk
CHAIR-I think we will need to move on very shortly if you cannot word your questions so that there is at least a possibility of Mr O'Sullivan being able to answer them.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-I just want to ask: if a member of parliament comes under surveillance from ASIO, in all such cases is the minister, the Attorney-General, informed and kept briefed on the matter?
Talk
Mr O'Sullivan-That is a hypothetical and speculative question.
Talk
CHAIR-It is a hypothetical question.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-We do not know that is the case.
Talk
CHAIR-That is a hypothetical question.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-No, it is not necessarily so.
Talk
CHAIR-You will have to reword the question, Senator. It is hypothetical.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-Okay.
Talk
Senator NETTLE-We do not know if it is hypothetical or not because we do not have an answer.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-Let me ask this question: has ASIO communicated with the Attorney-General about any member of parliament?
Talk
Mr O'Sullivan-For the reasons I have already explained, I cannot answer the substance of your question. On the procedural point of your question now, the advice that I give to the Attorney about any particular matter is confidential and it should properly remain so.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-I am very concerned that this matter seems to be off limits, because there has to be a division between the elected parliament and the overview by the Attorney-General of ASIO. What I would expect is that there is some failsafe mechanism so that members of parliament cannot be surveilled for matters other than an obvious and clear threat to national security. It moves into the area of hypothetical only because I cannot get an answer to the first question which is whether or not members of parliament are being surveilled. I would have expected the answer to that to be no.
Talk
CHAIR-Senator, is that a question? I appreciate your comments-and it is a hypothetical comment, in my view-but you need to word it as a question otherwise we will need to move on. I notice that Senator Ludwig is keen to ask some questions.
Talk
Senator BOB BROWN-I am keen to get an answer to the process underway here. I have simply asked whether the Attorney-General has been contacted by ASIO about any member of parliament. I cannot get an answer to that question so I have nowhere else to go on the matter. But it does concern me greatly. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ebony Bennett
Media Advisor 
Senator Bob Brown | Leader of the Australian Greens 
e: ebony.bennett at aph.gov.au 
m: 0409 164 603 | p: (02) 6277 3170 | f: (02) 6277 3185
w: www.bobbrown.org.au <http://www.bobbrown.org.au/>   <http://www.greens.org.au>